Yellowknife (Feb 23/05) - The shrinking number of seats inside city shopping centres is meant to detract loiterers, say mall managers, who want the city to adopt a loitering bylaw.

Advocates for those who are down and out worry the proposal could amount to a bylaw against homelessness.

The front of Centre Square Mall is a popular place for people to hang out. Mall management has requested the chamber to push for a loitering bylaw.

When the Centre Square Mall opened in 1990, visitors could sit on benches that surrounded a large fountain.

But a few years later the benches and fountain were both removed because of problems with people loitering, general manager Jennifer Marchant said. Crowds caused congestion and garbage floated in the fountain - some even used it as a toilet.

She says because the mall connects to the public library, parkade, a business tower, hotel and residential tower, it's difficult to keep the area free of loiterers.

"The only thing we don't have here is an airport," Marchant said. "We have merchants who don't want people in the mall who aren't prepared to shop."

Shoplifting is also an issue at the mall.

CD Plus manager Aaron Hernandez estimates five people were caught shoplifting from his store in the last month, but adds, "I'm sure there's more."

"It's a huge problem," he said. "We've caught a couple in the last few weeks, too. It just gets irritating, having to keep an extra eye on these people."

"They're mostly older drunks and teenagers, people who don't go to school."

Marchant said the chamber of commerce plans to ask city council to adopt a loitering bylaw, but chamber officials remain tight-lipped.

The chamber was unable to confirm whether or not it was working on a proposal, but Mayor Gord Van Tighem said he expects to hear from the organization soon.

"I spoke to some members of the chamber and suggested they come up with a reasoned proposal."

Salvation Army Major Al Hoeft said he's concerned the proposal could amount to a bylaw against homelessness.

"It really discriminates against those who don't have a home to go to," he said, estimating there are 75-80 people who use shelters in the city every night.

"If the chamber or city had a place for them to go, that'd give us some options."

Hoeft and Marchant both agree that a downtown drop-in centre would be a solution. However, Hoeft says such centres are hard to fund and downtown space is expensive.

In the meantime, he's concerned how exactly loitering will be defined.

"If I'm waiting for my wife to pick me up, am I loitering? Or are they going to target 'undesirables'? That's the problem."

Doug Gillard, head of the municipal enforcement division, said enforcing a loitering bylaw could be difficult.

"It'd definitely be a challenge to deal with the amount of people without homes, who simply go from building to building just to stay warm."

RCMP Insp. Roch Fortin said a loitering bylaw will probably just push problems from the malls to another part of town.

"They end up displacing the problem from place to place," he said. "Do you move the problem up to 49th Street? 48th? 47th?"

Loitering will be one of the issues addressed by a new community policing committee, which will be introduced in early March, he said.

Police are left in an unenviable situation.

"It's a no-win situation. The last thing I want to see is someone who's froze to death."